Stanley Cup Champion Craig Wolanin: On Grit, Growth, and Life in the NHL

On this week's Dealer Out of Office, hosts Jake and Frank sit down with Craig Wolanin — third overall pick in the 1985 NHL Draft, Stanley Cup champion with the Colorado Avalanche, and Michigan hockey lifer — for a wide-ranging conversation about growing up on frozen ponds in Warren, navigating the NHL at 18, the Colorado-Detroit rivalry, and what it really takes to raise a kid who plays pro sports. The vibe is pure OOO: honest, unscripted, and the kind of hockey talk you don't usually get on a car podcast.

Craig Wolanin didn't grow up thinking he'd make it to the NHL. He grew up in Warren, Michigan, lacing up on a neighbor's backyard pond, skating around the nuns next door who never complained about pucks hitting their house, and playing at Fraser Hockey Land — a local rink that was, by his own description, about as grassroots as it gets. His parents were divorced when he was young. There were no private skating coaches. No travel teams at age seven.

There was just hockey, because his older brother played, and a neighborhood that made it easy to fall in love with the game.

The Kid Who Quit — Twice

Craig's path to the NHL ran through a detour that most first-round picks don't take: he quit hockey at 15. Not a break. A full stop.

He was burned out, had a bad attitude by his own admission, and walked away from the game entirely. He enrolled at De La Salle, played varsity baseball as a sophomore, and came back his junior year ready to commit to the diamond — only to get cut by the baseball coach. He walked home, told his mom, and she told him his grades needed to go up since he suddenly had free time.

So Craig picked up the puck again. Two years later, he was a first-round draft pick.

He played for CompuWare in his midget years alongside names like Pat LaFontaine, Jimmy Carson, the Hatcher brothers, and Adam Foote. At 16, he was drafted into the OHL and headed to Kitchener, Ontario — forfeiting his college eligibility for $55 a week Canadian and never looking back.

The Judge Who Said Things Quietly Enough to Hear

Being drafted third overall by New Jersey at 17 and playing in the NHL at 18 came with an unusual support system: a billet family in New Jersey that Craig describes as the most important relationship of his early career.

The patriarch — a federal judge — used to sit in the front row of the visitor's penalty box. Craig tells the story of taking a Clark Gillies left hand to the face, collecting himself off the ice, skating past the judge, and watching the man just slowly shake his head. No yelling. No lecture. Just pasta dinners after late games, quiet conversations in the judge's chambers, and a man who, as Craig puts it, "spoke so softly that I heard him."

The judge wasn't flashy. He was just steady — which is exactly what an 18-year-old playing professional hockey in a new city needed.

The Trade, the Fax Machine, and Quebec

Craig's first trade came in classic NHL fashion: he found out he'd been dealt to Quebec not through a phone call, not through his agent, but because his captain Kirk Muller walked over before warmups and told him the coach wanted to see him.

The kicker? The trade had technically happened hours after the deadline because the fax machine hadn't processed it yet. It was a different era.

Quebec, at the time, was a place nobody wanted to play — bad taxes, French culture, and a team still being built. Craig loved it. He bought in from day one, spent five years there, and watched the roster quietly assemble around him: Joe Sakic maturing, Peter Forsberg arriving via the Lindros trade, Owen Nolan, Valeri Kamensky. The foundation of something.

Winning the Cup — and What It Actually Cost

When the Nordiques relocated to Colorado and became the Avalanche in 1995, Craig went with them. That first season in Denver, they won the Stanley Cup.

He spent the season playing through a separated shoulder that eventually needed reconstruction. He knew it was probably his best shot at the Cup. So he slid into a smaller role, played smart, and did what it took. Claude Lemieux hit Kris Draper from behind in the playoffs that year, igniting the rivalry that would define the next several seasons. Colorado won the Cup. The Red Wings were furious.

Craig saw both sides of it — the elation of winning the most difficult trophy in sports, and the understanding that a moment like Draper's injury doesn't just disappear. It was kindling, and it burned for years.

The Stanley Cup victory he describes as permanent. Thirty years later, reunions with teammates. The children of Chris Simon — who died by suicide in recent years — coming to the anniversary celebration as honored guests. First-class, all the way. That's the kind of bond that gets forged when you win together.

Raising Christian Wolanin (Without Making Him a Hockey Player)

One of the richest parts of the conversation is Craig's take on raising his son Christian, who played professionally with Ottawa, Vancouver, and others.

His answer surprises people: if he had raised Christian to be a hockey player, he believes Christian would have been better. He didn't. He raised him to have dinner around the table with the family. Hockey just happened to get in the way — in the best possible sense.

Craig and his coaching partner Pat Peake (a first-round pick whose career ended prematurely) preach a simple philosophy to parents: do what's right for your whole family, not just for one kid's hockey. Take the off-season off. Play lacrosse. Play football. Play flag football. Be an athlete, not just a hockey player.

His view: youth hockey is producing over-skilled, under-willed players. The kids can handle the puck. They can skate. What's missing is the willingness to battle — the part that doesn't show up until the game gets hard and uncomfortable.

He coaches by asking open-ended questions instead of telling kids what to do. He'd rather a kid figure out what his options were on a given play than simply execute an instruction. And he's watching his son Christian now, at 30, as a father himself — realizing the information flowing back from a player living it in real time is more valuable to young players than anything Craig can say from memory.

Before You Fascinate, You Facilitate

In one of the best lines of the episode, Craig draws a parallel between defenseman development and Nicklas Lidstrom — noting that before Lidstrom became the player everyone wanted to watch, he was an elite defensive player who won multiple Selke Trophies. The highlights came later. The fundamentals came first.

"Before you fascinate," Craig says, "you've got to facilitate."

He's coaching a 6'7", 225-pound 15-year-old next season and already thinking about how to lower the kid's center of gravity — watching Nikola Jokic rebound and immediately look for an outlet pass four feet away, thinking about how that translates to a defenseman who needs to learn to move the puck quickly rather than hold onto it.

It's the kind of coaching philosophy that doesn't get talked about enough: not chasing the spectacular before the fundamental is locked in.

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Frequently Asked Questions

Who is Craig Wolanin? Craig Wolanin is a former NHL defenseman from Warren, Michigan. He was selected third overall by the New Jersey Devils in the 1985 NHL Draft, played 14 seasons in the league, and won the Stanley Cup with the Colorado Avalanche in 1996. He grew up playing for CompuWare in the Detroit metro area alongside Pat LaFontaine, Jimmy Carson, the Hatcher brothers, and Adam Foote. He now coaches youth hockey in Michigan alongside fellow former NHL defenseman Pat Peake.

What is CompuWare hockey? CompuWare was a storied youth hockey program based in the Detroit area, founded alongside the rise of sponsor Peter Karmanos. In the 1980s, it became one of the premier amateur programs in North America, developing dozens of NHL players — including Craig Wolanin, Pat LaFontaine, Jimmy Carson, the Hatcher brothers, and Adam Foote — before they moved on to major junior or college hockey.

What is the Colorado-Detroit rivalry? The Colorado Avalanche-Detroit Red Wings rivalry of the mid-to-late 1990s is widely considered one of the greatest rivalries in NHL history. It was fueled in part by Claude Lemieux's hit on Kris Draper in the 1996 playoffs, which led to years of physical, contentious playoff matchups. The rivalry featured personalities including Patrick Roy, Claude Lemieux, Brendan Shanahan, Darren McCarty, Steve Yzerman, and Joe Sakic, and produced some of the most memorable moments in hockey history.

What is Dealer Out of Office? Dealer Out of Office is a podcast hosted by Jake Berkal and Frank Zombo that features conversations with athletes, business leaders, and personalities — covering stories beyond the car business with no script and no filter.

I quit hockey and I played a little bit of varsity baseball as a sophomore at De La Salle. And I went back to my junior year to De La Salle thinking, okay, you know what, this'll be fun. I'm playing baseball only. And that coach cut me. I was so pissed because I was a good baseball player and I loved baseball. He broke my nose. And the aforementioned judge, he used to sit right next to the visitor experiment's first row. And I would I'm getting up and collecting my teeth or whatever and

And I'm skating past the judge and the judge is just shaking his head. It's like Welcome to Dealer Out of Office. We're your hosts. I'm Frank Zombo I'm Jake Berkal And we are here to talk to you about dealers' interests outside of the office. Now watch this draft.

What is up, everyone? Welcome back to Dealer Out of Office. As always, I'm your host, Jacob Berkal, alongside my good buddy Frank Zombo. and today we have a very special guest, friend of the program, friend of the company. first round draft pick, third overall, with I believe it was New Jersey, if I remember correctly. Stanley Cup champion with the Colorado Avalanche. Craig Wolanin welcome to the show, brother. How are you? I'm well, thank you, Jacob.

Appreciate it. And it was New Jersey. It was moons ago, but it was New Jersey. What a resume. What a re I mean, I'm looking at the hockey DB right now, Craig, and it's it's a it's a plethora of cool teams that we want to get into. you know, that that we're gonna talk a lot about, you know, Colorado being Michigan based. We're gonna talk a lot Colorado Detroit. but we always wanna start from kind of from the beginning. You're a Michigan kid, you know

What started the love of hockey? What, you know, kinda brought you in? Where'd you go? You know, juniors, you know, there's so many different ranks. I I'm kinda geeking out 'cause I'm hockey guy, right? So, you know, you went to the OHL, you know, you went junior out, that sort of thing. Was college on your mind? You know, start kinda, you know, from the beginning, I guess. Well, you know, the beginning really is it's quite simple, really. It starts on ponds, you know, for most of us it did, I think today.

you know, it's much more formal in how kids are introduced to to whatever hockey or sports. And in our case, growing up in Warren typical, you know, forty foot lots, our our neighbors used to used to make a pond for us and it was funny because we had my mom's house, nuns, Catholic nuns, and then our neighbor's house and

Thank God they were nuns because their house took abuse at the time and be it their garage or us climbing their fence with our skates on to retrieve pucks and what have you. So and inevitably those are the best memories. But it started in Warren and Fraser Hockey Land, which is it's still there. A beautiful wooden You know that it was really just kind of grassroots, you know. It's again today.

You know, everybody is everywhere all the time. Back then it was you know, we were pretty local, be it Fraser or St. Clair Shores. Warren did have a rink, but Fraser was the primary area that we skated at. you know, our parents my parents were divorced when we were young, so my two brothers and I we weren't gonna be traveling a whole lot when we were young, but so that's where it started. four or five years old.

You know, and I I'm not sure the reason I started. I have an older brother that played hockey and I'm not sure why he started. But that's where the journey began and stayed for the longest of times until you know, as I started to progress a little bit, we we had some pretty good teams in this in the St. Clair Shores area. And then as I got into my midget years, like fourteen or fifteen years old, CompuWare joined the ranks.

Was Concorde the original or was it Caesars that's that kind of started the whole Yeah, I was gonna say that. Caesars was Caesars has been there forever, right? And there were other teams like Paddock Pools, for example. they were a major sponsor. They had other ones like SNA Industries, Mr. Aldridge used to sponsor teams, but Caesars was the the you know, the sponsor and continues to be the sponsor throughout the years. But

So, you know, CompuWare, Mr. Camadas was just starting CompuWare at the time and starting to get into sponsorships and things like that. And after after the St. Clair Shores years, they were skating out of Oak Park. guys like myself and others, Ally Frady, the Hatcher brothers, Patty Lafontaine, Ally Frady, did I say him, Jimmy Carson, who else? Adam Foote, Adam Foote, Adam Bird, there was a

bunch of us within a a certain amount of age group that ended up playing with CompuWare. And you know, from there I was drafted into juniors. you know, probably at what fifteen, sixteen years old and went to play in Kitchener, Ontario. That's about the time you had I had to make a decision whether I was going to to play juniors in Canada or you know pursue college.

many of the guys like Frady and Carson and you know, Kevin Hatcher and his brothers, they were all kind of kind of drifting toward major junior in Canada. The caveat back then was that if you played major juniors you were paid — I think I made fifty-five dollars a week Canadian and I forfeited my college eligibility for that fifty-five dollars a week.

So I did that and I was in Kitchener for a year, drafted by New Jersey the following year, and played drafted as a seventeen year old into the NHL and played as an eighteen year old. Incredible. Hey, Craig, I have young kids and you know, I've kinda at what point did you realize like being a first round pick, you're different? At what point did you realize like hey, I could

go real far in hockey or like what was your mindset during that time when did you realize like I'm gonna really work hard at this? Like when did you have that realization? I would say my journey is atypical, Frank, because I never thought we never thought about pros. Like we knew we always dreamed and we were always playing like I said on the pond or in the street, right? And we were always whomever it was at that time. You know, a lot of the Red Wing alumni I know

Personally now through my experiences with them, but watching them growing up, you know, we aspired to be them just in the streets, right? I I quit playing hockey at 15 for a year. And I I was just tired of it. I was worn out. you know, I had a few I had a yeah, I had just some influences in my life that kind of didn't make it fun anymore. And so I had just had enough of it and I

quit, I went to De La Salle. I quit hockey and I played a little bit of varsity baseball as a sophomore at De La Salle. And I went back from my junior year to De La Salle thinking, okay, you know what, this will be fun. I'm playing baseball only. And that coach cut me. And I'm like, you know, I was so pissed because I was a good baseball player and I loved baseball. And so I stopped playing and I got cut from baseball. I kind of walked home

told my ma that I didn't you know, I got cut and she says, Well, your grades gotta go up because now I got time, right? I got no sports. I played all the sports and she said your grades gotta go up and so I started playing hockey again. And that was probably at sixteen years old, fifteen, sixteen years old. And Who would have thought two years later you're a first round draft pick in the show? So you know, so you know and I wasn't

That guy that worked hard, Frank. I I did not work hard and I had a poor attitude. I did, you know. And you know, back then I think it's better now, you know. My parents were divorced when we were young. It wasn't as talked about as much then as it is now, but you know, somehow, somehow it has an effect on you. And, you know, I we had great parents, don't get me wrong. But, you know, I did have a bad attitude, right?

I did I didn't work real hard, but I enjoy playing hockey. In spite of all that, Frank, like you said, when when you go to play junior hockey in Canada, you you're on to something, right? Like you they feel like there's something there. So I guess to answer your question in a roundabout way, at about sixteen or seventeen, I don't know if I thought I could make a living out of it.

But certainly I was going to give it a try and my parents entrusted me to do that and it worked out. I'd say so. It worked out. Yeah. That big shadow again, I'd have gone to school. Was there anybody I know was there anybody that maybe you didn't realize you wanted to play in the NHL or you had the talent to do it? Was there anybody along the way that was like Craig? And again, maybe your your parents were that support, but they were like, Hey, you got it.

Like you should pursue this or anyone that kind of was like a mentor along that way for you to take it more serious or anything like that? Well, I I think that's what I had was it. You know, I think that it was in me, meaning I understood and I understood what it took. At least I I thought I understood what it took, meaning I wasn't gonna take shortcuts. You know, I had an I had an understanding of how to play hockey.

And meaning on that ice surface, I could tell you any angle from anywhere on the ice, you put me in classroom and and make a geometry, you're looking at the dunce, right? So I just understood how to play hockey and I had an aptitude and a willingness to to sacrifice. And and so I think that for some reason I was allowed enough time for that to flourish a little bit.

You know, and and the group that drafted me in in New Jersey was just top notch, you know, just top notch people, all the way around. And I was very fortunate to to be drafted by them because across the board, you know, they were well respected. the team necessarily wasn't because it was really in its infant stages. in fact, a couple of years before I got drafted by New Jersey,

Wayne Gretzky called them a Mickey Mouse organization, you know, and so it was just the startup. It was you know just part of the process. So by the time I got there it was great. And I had a in the hockey world, right, we call it billeting. I lived with a family for my first three years, cause I was 18, 19, and 20 my first three years. So I stayed with this big Italian family in New Jersey.

And the judge and Lucille, they had a tremendous influence on me, like like really, really, the judge would have been the one. He would have been the one that encouraged me all the time to, you know, what I was capable of and just the talks that we would have. We would have these these type of chats, you know, around the table after a game, you know, after a game.

I would go to his quarters and the you know, he would be in the courtroom and he'd see me walk into the back of the courtroom and and then court would be adjourned. I'd join him in his quarters and he would disrobe and we'd jump in our cars and get home and we the pasta dinners I had with him late at night, because I wasn't going out drinking then. I made up for it, but I wasn't going out drinking then. but the judge was like

probably that one that he kinda reinforced everything that my parents or anybody else around me but he spoke so so softly that I heard him. You know, like I just heard him. Like he was he was just terrific, you know. And so I guess if I had anybody other than my close family, it would have been him. I wanna I wanna bring it back a little bit, Craig, to what you said about getting burned out. And I think, you know, I got two boys who I

They're gonna play hockey, I hope. Frankie's got four boys. You know, you have a son who I don't know where he's at right now. I know he's played a he he's was with Ottawa, he was with Vancouver, he's a few different places right now, but he was always a special talent, right, growing up and and little known fact I see around the same age as you yeah, Christian I believe is a year or two younger than me. Is he a ninety five? Well, you know, he's probably yeah, he's ninety five. So what are you, ninety four? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So Christian was Christian was good. Like we played on the pond on Lake Orion. Like Christian was a good hockey player, is a good hockey player. how do you how'd you kind of combat that? Because I got burned out. I quit, you know, I I quit hockey. you know, I think a lot of people there's just so much, especially with hockey culture. I know it's like you gotta have, you know, your skating coach, you have to have your hands coach, you have to have your office. Like there's just so much going into kids who are

eight, nine, ten years old, and by the time they get to an actual maturity physically and mentally, they're like, I'm done with this. So what's kind of your what did you do with maybe differently from from when you started to to your son, to you know, where the game is now? Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, I kind of have a I kind of summarize it by saying if I'd have raised Christian to be a hockey player, he'd have been a lot better than he is.

And I say that because that was not our intent. You know, our intent was to have dinner around the table. That was my wife was adamant about that. And I would say hockey in his case just got in the way of things, you know. it was important to him because he loves hockey and he loves to play hockey. And incidentally he's he finished this year in in the Bruins organization in Providence. but our

Approach was very simple. and it's what I I still coach kids today, you know. And I always tell the parents, I said, if you do what's right by your family first, you'll never regret it. You know, Frank's got what, four boys, Frank? Right? You've got two Jacob, right? And hockey in the hockey world, man, the family comes, right? So whether it's sisters or brothers or whomever, aunts, uncles, grandparents, like it's a really familial game.

And so my no my my advice to parents is do what's right by your family, the entire family. For example, we're in the off season now. You know, I I coach with Pat Peake, who was a first round pick to Washington, who had his career ended prematurely, very prematurely. And he and I our approach is get away from the game, you know, be an athlete, play football, play flag football, play lacrosse.

And I think that's what's happening these days is that we're we're we're we're creating hockey players, but we're losing athletes. And I think some of the best kids that I had growing up, including Christian, were were athletes, right? My football players had an understanding of space, leverage, timing, all this stuff, that I really enjoyed. And I wasn't and still am not one of those coaches that

If they want if it's football season and they're missing a practice of playing a football game, that's the way it should go. And so I I think that's kinda how Christian was raised. You know, when it was lacrosse season, he played lacrosse. Yeah. Hockey, hockey, you know, and so on and so forth. And I'm really proud of him, Jacob, because you know, as a first round pick, I get nine lives, right? Like, you know, everybody thinks they can do something with me because I was a first round pick, right?

And sometimes it's timing, right? Sometimes, you know, maturity wise, I was pretty wise at seventeen, eighteen years old. You know, physically I had to catch up a little bit, and then you know that I don't know, for me the timing never really sinked. You know, by the time I was really ready to be a pro, like twelve, thirteen years into it, my career was over, right? And and in Christian's case, everything that he has done has been either a late bloomer or

It's been an absolute grind. It's always been the hard way. And you know, and he's mashing out a career of it. I'm really proud of him because it's it's easy to quit, right? We all think we want it until we gotta go get it. And when you gotta go get it, as Frank can attest to, you're playing against men and it's hard. And I did wanna ask you that Jay beat me to the question, is that was one thing I wanna talk to you about is 'cause like

With my four boys right now, I get so many people that ask me, like, your son's gonna be football players? Are they gonna are they gonna go pro like — who knows? You know what I mean? Like and it's and it's like almost needed advice of like, how did you approach that? Like I know my sons play everything. but I also want — a lot of my questions are related towards cause even if it's not my kids, but I I am around a lot of youth. And at what point do I real like even I look at some kids and some kids have it.

Sometimes kids it might take a little longer for them to find it. Someone you know, some of them find it and then they peak earlier, you know, whatever it is. But I kinda wanna find I do look at my sons a certain way to find out like how competitive are they? How much does it how much does it hurt? Are they able to get to a point of where they can't go any further and do they push through it or do they they cower a little bit? And I try to relate it to like maybe how I grew up and my upbringing of playing football was playing with the older kids in my subdivision in the in the front yard of

You know, whatever games we would play. But that's how I played. You it wasn't as organized. Now they're in lacrosse, football, flag football, all this different stuff. But I'm trying to figure out what traits do the kids that have it — what what is that? What is that or you know? Yeah, and it's I don't think it's a cookie cutter, you know, that that's the thing. I don't think it's a cookie cutter type of thing, because as you mentioned, that

You know, that person that has it type of thing, it it manifests itself on their time, not my time as a coach, right? Or your time as a parent. And so I think that's the one thing I've learned through Christian and the one thing I can relate to parents today, even though there's a lot of emotions that go into these decisions, because a lot of parents think that that it's got to happen today. If for example, our kids are fifteen, the kids I coach are fifteen years old right now.

You know, now juniors are starting to look at it. But in reality, with NIL and the transfer portal and COVID and all that junk, fifteen, I mean, you could be eight years away from college, right? I don't know what the you know, the average age of you know, some of these teams that are winning in college force now, like Indiana, for example, on the football side of things. Like I don't know what their average age is, but it's not nineteen. Right. They're like grown — they're grown. Yeah.

That's exactly right. Ferris State on the football side of things has done well. I think they're D2, right? Yep. They've done really well over the years, but they've had an older group. Western Michigan, when they won the NCAAs the other day, the other year, I think they were in their mid, not mid, but early twenties on average, right? And so that the whole thing has been pushed back, meaning you can take time to develop.

And the kids, as long as they're an environment in which they're learning and they're having fun, they'll have that time to allow for development. But it's their time. It's not ours. It's not mine, right? I'm not gonna I'm not gonna expedite that curve, right? And you know, I've watched my son do it, you know, and and he would attest. I wish he could be here with us because I just love listening to him now and having this kind of discourse with them.

now that he's a thirty year old, thirty-one year old, right? And a father, right? It's all these things. Man, I it's so much more fun for me now, with him being where he's at, that because the information that I get now, it's real time to the kids I coach. And it's not my words, it's now it's now yours, Frank, or it's now yours, Jacobs, or Christians or whoever's, and I can impart that to the kids. They can do what they want with it. Some could process it right now. Others, it may be a few years

For them. But it will be there. It will be there. Whatever it is, it will. And they may be able to apply what they learned in the sport into what you guys are doing, you know. And my guess would be at at Auto Hauler there is that you see a kid, an athlete, you know, on their resume, you're like, all right, man, this kid play football or this kid play lacrosse. Right. So we have an intern here in our office right now. I'm like, Trevor, you're a lacrosse player, right?

And I'm talking to them about doing the dishes up in the kitchen. I said, if somebody else's dishes were in that were in that sink right there, would you do — You know, and nowhere has I said, yeah, you do them because you're an athlete, right? You know how to take care of your teammates. And that's the kind of exchange I love having with young people these days. Right? I think there's a there's a there's a higher expectation if you're an athlete. I just do. And hopefully coaches are coaching that. Be a good athlete but a better person.

To to kind of get back to your I mean, I love that and and I know, you know, I just think it's funny. You you get the crazy hockey parents. It's like, yeah, little Johnny might be really good at nine years old, but wait till he finds, you know, you know, booze and girls and see if he still loves hockey as much. So but in any event, so you're kind of getting back to your career, right? You're you're eighteen years old, you're playing in the NHL with some with some heavy hitters. Like back in in your day when you get in, there's there's clutching and grabbing. The rules were still

Yeah. You know, hockey hockey's a tough game, but it was a lot tougher when you got in there. So when when you're eighteen, nineteen years old, like what's going through your mind? Are you like, shit, I'm about to get my eye pump shut, like I don't want to go back, pick up this puck 'cause I'm gonna get smoked. Like kinda how do you adapt with all that and and Yeah, that's a kind of grow your game. Yeah, that's a good question. you know, one of the reasons you stay with a family

you know you billet in like in my case is that the teams want you focused on just playing hockey right and because they understand that that's hard enough as it is I think for me you know even at 18 I was I was the youngest player in the league that year and then the next year I was the second player as the youngest player in the league I think next to Jimmy Carson. And I understood what needed to take place

On the ice, Jacob. What I didn't understand is how fast it would take place, right? And there is that's just repetition, right? When I said to you earlier that you know, whatever, 12, 10, 12 years into it, you finally feel like, okay, now I know what it's like to be a pro, right? And what I meant by that is that you're it's all encompassing, right? You've got everything. You've got the actual repetitions that you put in.

And then you have experience to couple that with, right? And knowledge. And you've got all these this information from everybody. But at eighteen or nineteen, it's it's really hard. And I I think back then intimidation to your point was a big part of the game. these kids today, they everybody knows each other, right? So, you know, if if you're coming up in the league like and you could be in wherever.

You know, British Columbia, somebody knows of you, right? In your age group. And and back then we didn't have that. So intimidation, not knowing about this particular guy or that guy, it was a huge part of it. And that's part of the learning curve is who to stay away from, right? So I learned that pretty quickly. Who who was the guy that you quickly learned to stay away from? That what was the first like, okay, this is my welcome to the NHL movement? Well, there were a few of

There were a few of I I think back then, like the New York Islanders were just coming off. you know, they kinda handed the throne to the Edmonton Oilers who won four in a row, Islanders won four in a row, but they still had, you know, guys left over from them Stanley Cup teams, you know, really like Hall of Fame, Ring of Fame, if you will, Islanders. And there was one guy named Clark Gillies who was just a man. Like he was like no helmet.

Beard, handsome guy, right? Big tough left winger. And I know he had a left hand, and I found out that he did. And he broke my nose. And the judge, the aforementioned judge, he used to sit right next to the visitor's penalty box first row. And I would get in I, you know, I'm getting up and collecting my teeth or whatever, and and and I'm skating past the judge, and the judge is just shaking his head.

So I get done, we get done. It was an afternoon game, I think, and you know, we're out to dinner with the judge and I. And he's like, Craigie, you know, he's a man, you know, like you've got to stay away from those guys. I'm like, Judge, man, if he grabs you, I ain't stay, I ain't getting I'm not going anywhere, right? Did he jump you? No, no. No, that's the thing. He was just tough, right? And honest. And you know, things happen in front of the net and whatever, and and then all of a sudden it's on, right?

You didn't you didn't check the game notes to see he was a lefty? Well, he was yeah, he was just tough. Yeah, he was tough. But that was just you know, there was all kinds, right? Like Bobby Probert here and you know, and Joey Kocur and honestly, like there's just it was just a great game back then. You know, it's a really good game now because it's so darn fast. But back then, you know, guys like you know, Mario Lemieux, right, and and Jagr and Gretzky and all these guys like

To your point, we were just clutching and grabbing and hanging on them and hooking them and and they still did what they did, right? Right. And it just and then go on before that, right? Ted Lindsay's a local guy here and God rest his soul. But how they had it, how tough it was for them. And so I really gained an appreciation of the eras of hockey, including, you know, today's game, which I appreciate, because these kids are good, man. The skills are good.

Skill is unreal. Let's talk about so you get traded, right? So you create a, you know, and you know, Frank's been traded. I've never been traded, but what is that, you know, how did that go? You know, you're you're going into something unfamiliar, you're still a young kid, right? You're still trying to cut your teeth in the NHL, you get traded to a completely new market. what kind of goes through your head there? Yeah, that that what your first trade in hockey, they're more prevalent.

than they are in most sports. So your first trade is is, you know, your draft team. It's it shook me up, frankly. because there was a veteran that I used to drive with to the games and it was the trade deadline and I had rumors of me being traded and whatever. And Jim Korn was his name. He actually he played a long time and he's a lawyer now, played with the Red Wings in fact. So I drove to the rink

for the morning skate with Jim and we're just talking back and forth. He says, Well, if you're here after the morning skate, you know, you're not going anywhere, right? So okay, you know, you go home, you you eat, take your nap, you're you get back to the rink. And I'm getting dressed, ready for the game. And I look across the way and I don't see Jimmy there. And somebody says, Well yeah Jimmy got traded to Calgary. I'm like, you know, well, okay, it happens, right?

So I'm getting dressed and about to go on for warmups. And Kirk Muller is our captain at the time. He comes over to me and says, The coach wants to see you. I said, All right. So I go in and I I talk to the coach. He says, you're not playing tonight. I said, Well, why not? He says, Well, you've been traded. I'm like, Well, what are you what are you talking about? I've been traded. It's four hours after the trade deadline. Deadline was like three o'clock.

He says, Yeah, you've been traded, but there was a problem with the fax machine, so it hadn't been officially processed yet. You weren't getting text messages back then. Right, yeah. It was a fax machine that the dot matrix type of thing. And so I got traded to Quebec. And that was the the year before like two years be a year and a half before Lindros declined to come to Quebec.

And when I got traded to Quebec, nobody wanted to play hockey there, especially an Anglophone. And for me though, I just I loved it from day one, you know, and I got traded for a for a guy named Peter Stasney who is an icon in in in Quebec City and still is, right? Just a great guy and a great player. And so anyway, I got traded to Quebec and you know, finished off the season there.

I mean it's a cultural difference there and needless to say and I just left. How was it leaving the judge in that family? Because like even when I was in Green Bay, I had like a family that I was tight with that was outside of the Packers organization, just somebody I'd met that had young kids that I'd hang out there. And then when I remember leaving to go to Kansas City, I like it was kinda sad. And at least I was able to call and text them all the time. But for you back then, like communication is probably whatever, but you still stay in contact with him?

yeah, great. That's really a great point, Frank. Actually I had two, I had the judges family, right? And they were what were they, four or five kids, four kids, right? And grandkids and all this stuff, right? So and then I befriended another big Italian family with nine kids. Right. So it was that was devastating. And I'm such a mama's boy, right? Like I'm crying and it was it was it was hard because just because of that, right?

Probably the best advice I ever got in hockey. the FBI used to have retired agents come speak to us. Now they got their own security teams. And I remember that guy who's from the East Coast and it was our first team meeting. And he said, You know what, make your friends outside of hockey. And that was the best advice I ever got. I have wonderful friends inside the game, but the ones that I'm in touch with still are are

people like the judges family and their grandkids, right? And now our other the Brancatos — they were still in touch whatever 40 years later, right? And it's been unreal. but to that point, they all I'm going to their weddings, their grandkids' weddings, they're coming to ours. And it's been that way for for all this time, Frank. And that was the thing that that I missed the most. And you know, and Quebec is such a beautiful city.

that it's easy to get people there. it's easier in the summer when the weather's nice, but it's just a great city. So we had a ton of visitors and and I loved it there and I loved my five years there. I had a similar kind of story, correct. I was in when I was in Kansas City, twenty thirteen, me and my wife we basically we moved to like a little downtown area, rented a place until I wanted to figure out like where I wanted to be in Kansas City. First I actually had to make the team 'cause I

Jake said I was traded from the Packers in Kansas City. My contract ran out there. I had nothing. Kansas City gave me a shot, right? So I was still in a way like, I don't know if I'm gonna be here or not, like trying to make the roster. No, fair enough. And I was driving in a I've always been like a Mustang guy being from Detroit. Always love Ford, love Mustangs, and I see a guy driving an O three Mustang Cobra, Sonic Blue. And this is like one of the cooler Mustangs. If you know Mustangs, you're like, that's a sweet car, the Terminator, whatever. And

some kids people joke like hey I'm Frank wanna be my friend like I'm very outgoing when it comes to just like talking to somebody or question you know asking questions and I like roll my window down like beautiful car bro like we're like talking at the light through the window and he's like you want to pull over and just chat more I'm like sure and I had a you know a Mustang back at home in in Detroit and we start talking he's like you want to just go for a ride and I'm like sure so he's like drive around Kansas City and he grew up there and he was a Chiefs fan and I you know told him home I I saw you know you just came in from Green Bay

And we drive around for maybe ten minutes and then he's like, You I was like, you know, it's just me and my wife here. He's Yeah, it's just me and my wife. Do you guys wanna come over for a barbecue? And we're like, Sure. So that night we went over to Drew's house for a barbecue. They didn't have any kids, we didn't have any kids. And then my six years in Kansas City, we seemed to have kids all at the same time. And then just last year I played in his invitational at his country club. my buddy Drew, and I talked to him, you know, a couple of times a month just from a random Hey, nice car, bro. And

now our family, you know, are cool and you know, those are friends you make forever. And the same thing with my family that I met in Green Bay, the Celsix. Every time I go back there I meet up with them and their kids you know once were eight years old and I was throwing little balls on now they got, you know, the other college graduates are, you know, getting married, you know, things like that. So it's crazy to the how the time kind of flies and and you know you make those relationships. Well you were real you were lucky in that way. Like and I know enough football and

actually Christian, my son played juniors in in Green Bay. I know that those are two football towns, right? Like they are rabid and the and the communities are you know, they're they're built around it football, it seems, right? And I would suggest that Quebec is the same way. you watched Montreal, right? Now versus Carolina, I mean, they call Detroit hockey town. It pales in comparison to Montreal.

I mean, or or Quebec or any of those Canadian cities for that matter, because it's in their blood, right? It is in their blood and and Quebec was the same way. you know, disappointingly, right? We well not disappointingly, but just the way it panned out. We were really starting to get good when we moved to Colorado. And you know, they had some lean years in Quebec and and I was I was proud to be part of that.

literally from the ground floor to an eventual Stanley Cup, like that was a big deal. And I know the fans are still disappointed that it happened a year after in in Colorado. Well it was the year after. So you go you go to Colorado, like I mean, did they take everyone so for people that don't know, you know, the Quebec Nordiques went to or turned into the Colorado Avalanche. Yeah, and then the whole Carolina yeah.

the question is I like that happened with Phoenix, you know, not too long ago. Like, does a lot of that staff go? What does that look like? 'Cause you know, it's not just the players, it's you know, the trainers, it's the chefs, it's like everything. So what did that how how is that whole experience? And then, you know, you you end up winning the Stanley Cup, you know, your first year there, which is, you know, it is the greatest trophy in all sports. I don't care what the Lombardi says, but pretty massive trophy.

Yeah. So yeah, take us kind of through that. Like how'd you guys learn about that? Are you guys kept in the dark? Do you know what's going on? What did that look like? Yeah, that was well leading up to that, like we were bad, right? Like when I got there we were really bad. And a lot like I said, a lot of guys didn't want to play in Quebec for whatever reason. The taxes, right, the French culture, you name it, there was every excuse you can imagine. But you know, there were guys that like Joe Sakic was there.

Right. Matt Sundin was coming, Owen Nolan, like super talented guys, right? Big names. and once we once we kind of started getting rid of the people that didn't want to be there and and guys like Joey started to mature as a player, an individual, right? They we started to get good to start supplementing that. Lindros didn't want to play in Quebec, which I feel was a mistake, but in the end

I mean, we I think for the trade we got five players and thirty-five million dollars, right? And so that trade included Peter Forsberg, right? So now we're starting to gain traction and you know the teams start to get good and to the point where I think we almost won the league the year before we won the the Stanley Cup, but the economics were starting to change too, and the Canadian dollar was similar

To what it is today, maybe a little less. it used to be when I was traded from a US team to a Canadian team, your salary trade exchange was was involved as well. So I went from being Canadian US dollars to Canadian dollars when I got traded there. And it's you take quite a hit, you know. So anyway, that started to change. you know, we started to get good. I think the last time Montreal won the Stanley Cup was ninety-three.

they won eleven overtime games I think that year and they beat us two or three times in overtime in the first round. but it was just great. The feeling was great, the fans were were rabid. And then the next year I think was a lockout year, but there were rumors starting, right? And I think the only players privy to those rumors would have been our best players like Joe Sakic, you know.

We darn near won the league that year and then the Rangers are coming off the Stanley Cup if I remember. They barely made the playoffs. They beat us in the first round with Messier and that group Adam Graves. and then the season was over and literally we started moving almost the next day, it seemed. And that was that was quite the quite the challenge. But it helps when you're involved with a professional organization. They they can expedite a lot of processes and

yeah, much the same team that ended the season in Quebec moved to Colorado. And that was pretty cool. So I remember that. I didn't follow I didn't really follow sports a whole lot growing up, but I followed the Red Wings during that I'm hoping maybe it's around that period when there was like the Joe Sakic, Peter Forsberg, Claude Lemieux. Like was that Craig around your time? Like where were you like I remember that that was

Octopus getting thrown on the ice like that kind of where are we at with that? Is that around that time? Well Draper got hit that year and then the next year you were gone if I'm reading the DB right. That's right. Yeah, so that whole year, yeah, that year kind of started the rivalry, if you will. you know, with us actually we played Detroit the first game of the year. I didn't score very many goals, but I remember scoring in that game. And

That was cool. And we I mean we just had a really good year. We had a really good team. Was it a Joe Lewis arena? No, I was in so before our technical difficulties we're talking, kind of like the biggest thing that kind of got me into hockey was was the brawl at Joe Lewis, right? So you're there the year you guys win the cup, kind of the hit on Draper, a little from behind, a lot from behind into the you know, into his face. and then you guys go on to win the Cup. So right then and there, the rivalry was

Getting heated, but that was like the tipping point, right? Sure, no question. Yeah. Yeah. So Drapes got hit in the playoffs the year before the big brawl at Joe Lewis, right? And you know, Claude hit him.

And I don't think it's I don't think guys go out there and hurt people. I really don't. I think I think things happen and I I think the biggest thing after all that was the fact that normally if something happens on the ice that that especially when a guy gets hurt, there's ways to send words. You somebody knows somebody on the other team, you might know the trainer, right? And you just send word that, hey, this Drapes is okay. You know what? I didn't

you know, I didn't mean that, that kind of thing, right? And I feel like you still may have to pay a price for it. There still may be some retribution. But the it's minimized by the fact that say, you know what? Hey, listen, I didn't mean that. I'm willing to accept the consequences, but the the that wasn't my intent. And I think it would have been extinguished a little bit had that happened. But it didn't. And you know, we did go on to win

that series and in the playoffs the stakes are too high. Oftentimes you won't see the retribution that immediately because you know we're all after one thing, right? That year we happen to get it, but then the next year, the way things play out, it's a long season. You're playing each other multiple times. It's bound to happen. and this what just with the personalities involved in it all, you know, from from Claude

To to to Mac, to Patty Roy, to others, right? It's just was kinda kindling, constantly burning. Well there's the code, right? Like what do your consequences look like? What happened? Okay, so you just get beat up. Like there's like consequences like you just Well, you gotta take it, right, Craig? Like I mean you you you hit someone like that, you know, you know how the enforcers after you? Heads on a swivel. So Yeah, you know, in that case too, every everybody kinda knows. I mean everybody knows

And they answer the bell here too nowadays, you know. If there's something egregious that happens on the ice, you know you're gonna have to account for it. Back then, you might have to account for it multiple times during multiple games or multiple seasons, and that's what happened with with Detroit. I mean, you know, Darren, he's not gonna let his teammates be done that way. And call it code, call it whatever you are. We understood that, right? And

You know, fortunately Drapes was better and it just well Dino was on that team too, Ciccarelli. Yep. Right. That's a whole nother thing. Dino's got a you know, an igniting personality, I'll just say. And so there's just a lot of you know, the the ashes would kind of be burned to you know, burning out a little bit. It would just be ash and all of a sudden a fire would start again and

It lasted a long time and if you talk to the Detroit people though and and both fans, they just love that rivalry. Yep. One of the greatest in sports. Now so you you win the cup, but you're gone when that all happens. So winning the cup, so going to the year prior, right? I mean you beat Detroit, that happens. I mean, what is that? You know, you said earlier like you really didn't think the pro hockey was was it and then now you're a Stanley Cup champion. So, you know, kinda take us through that. I mean, it's hardest trophy to win.

Seven game series of of just battling and and and you guys are finally, you know, coming out on top. Yeah. You know, for me, like like I said, I was whatever, ten or eleven years into it by that point. And I battled injuries all the time, you know, and it was very frustrating for me because every time I gained traction I feel like an injury would happen. And that year I was playing from Christmas on, I was playing with the shoulder that was separated.

You know, I was having the best year of my career at Christmas time, thinking like, man, this is kind of fun this way. You know, you're on a good team, you're contributing, and then I blow my shoulder out, eventually needs to be reconstructed. but I also knew that that was probably the best chance I was gonna have to win a cup, right? And so, you know, you you kind of slide in my case I slid into a subordinate role and but

I was smart enough to realize that I wasn't gonna jeopardize that. I wasn't gonna jeopardize, you know, sure you want to play more, all this stuff, but to your point, Jacob, it's a tough trophy to win. And you can ask Connor McDavid that right now, right? It's just hard. And finally, you know, I was out in New Jersey, we weren't great, we made a long playoff run, my fourth year there, one one game away from the Stanley Cup.

the next year we didn't make the playoffs, right? Get back to Quebec and we're just kind we're like a I'm back to ground floor, we rebuild, eventually we win. So I understood what the process was like and I understood that now, thirty years later, that if I could just win one, as Frank knows, you're always a a Super Bowl champion. You're always a Stanley Cup champion and you're always associated with guys for that one year. And then

You know, if you're lucky in the Red Wings case, you know, you win multiple cups together and that bond becomes even even tighter. but that 30-year reunion that we had this year, you remember Chris Simon. You know, Chris ended his own life what over a year or two ago. so he wasn't with us. But he had five kids and they were all with us. And it was so

Cool and they were so appreciative to be invited, you know. like it was a really, really really special time. the Russians move by nineteen there. What's that? I'm I'm assuming that was a big move by nineteen, Sakic, to to bring them the the kids in and have them share in all that. Yeah, like first class, Jake. First class the whole way. You know, all the crap that's going on between the Russians and the Ukraine and

You know, guys that came over back then, like Valerie Kamensky, Alexei Gusarov, these guys are all part of the old Russian Red Army team, right? Fetisov was on those on that team as well. Konstantinov, right? Yeah. And now with all the stuff happening over there, and yet we get to meet again in Colorado, like it was way cool. I would do that over again in a heartbeat. So

that's a roundabout way to answer your question, but that leaves an indelible impact. And that's not even I didn't even touch on what it does to your family and your friends, because that was the year before the Red Wings won their first one. Yeah. So, you know, that Stanley Cup wasn't as commonplace around here as it was you know, in the years subsequent to that. You know. In fact, at the party that I had at Pink Creek Country Club.

Sean Chambers, who was Australian Heights guy — he won the year before with Dallas? Who won the year before us? Whoever won the year before. And got to see his name on it. So it was cool. It's cool. Yeah. Isn't there one that like isn't there how New Jersey what's New — No, I don't know. Devils. Devils. Yeah, that's where yeah, he was directed. all right, so to cause I wanna be respectful of time, but I am curious kind of how you know you you know, you get traded, I believe it was like

Tampa and you know, a little cup of coffee in Toronto, and then you know, one of the greatest jerseys in all sports is the Detroit Vipers. at what point were you like, okay, I know you said you battled injury, you you know, you have kids at this time. Is it like, hey, I've I've gotten to the top of the mountain and you know, this is I'm happy with where my career is is ending? How does that, you know it's it sounds pretty storybooked for you for everybody? Most guys are told when to leave.

They don't get to retire on their terms. And you know, in my case I would call it injuries. Injuries was a cumulative thing. I blew my knee out in Toronto. and I hadn't had enough knee injuries to know that this one was really bad. It was the what the terrible triad plus an OCD an osteochondrial defect, which is bone on bone. So I knew this one was bad and

I don't know. I just I wanted to go over to Europe to play, but it's just a tough game and my body had had enough and the game told me that it was time to go. And right now I'm going through it. I'm I'm right now seven years removed from the NHL, but I'm not that I don't forget the drills I used to do, but I'm almost struggling to like I almost have to just see it. And it's and it's tough for me to like put it out in words. It's like

So how are you how do you coach these young kids? And you're a little bit further removed than I am from from playing, but do you take classes or do you is it all just based on feel, look, what you've done over the past, how you would do it? That's another way I like to push it too is like like still stunning. This is how I would do it. I remember Kevin Green coaching me and he's like, Thank you, this is how I would do it. And he was a Hall of Fame linebacker, so I was like, All right, I'm gonna do it that same way too, right? Like, so what what's your take there on just coaching these young kids and and the mentality you bring to it?

Yeah, like I I feel fortunate. The the the guy that I coach with, he and I both played the same way, meaning we weren't supremely gifted athletically, meaning we weren't the fastest, strongest, or anything like that. We we really played with our minds. And I I think the hard part, what I've learned through my son, Frank, to answer your question, is we teach basic fundamentals.

And we try to teach, you alluded to it earlier. We try to teach a little bit more will than skill. If it if football is like hockey now, these kids get so much skill. Where they lack is what I feel like old time hockey players used to bring. We all brought will, right? If you didn't bring will, you can be assured your parents are gonna let you know that hey, all I'm asking for is a great effort.

Right, they'll get what they get on their time, as I said earlier, not on my time, right? So if we just plant seeds and to your point, what I try to do is ask open-ended questions. Like we try to coach the kids, let we know the answers, but we want to know that they know the answers. So we always end it with something like, Well, you know, Jacob, what would you do in that situation? Or what were your options? And have the patience.

To let them figure it out. And heart off the glass. Yeah. So so it's and that's the way I like it. And I and the other thing I focus on, again, this is mostly through my son's experiences, is is basic fundamentals. What happens every time you step on the ice? It it could be, you know, retrievals, meaning going back for pucks as a defenseman. It's hard to play with your back to the ice, you know, to the

the ice. So teaching a defenseman how to play with his back to the ice is a critical skill, right? in football it could be tackling, it could be running, whatever. It's just basic fundamentals. The skill is there. These kids are all over skilled in my opinion. And and in in many cases under-willed, right? So if they put a real solid effort or a great effort into their game

into their practices, everything else will just come. It'll come because they want it to come, not because we want it to come, right? So that's kind of what we focus on is really simple, basic stuff that happens every shift of every game of every practice. I love it. Gives me a lot of thinking because I start with my youngins. I got so I'm the director of football for the junior career. Sure. Right. Got a hundred kids in the organization, 50 on the freshman

fifty or fifty on JV. So it's fourth and fifth and then or third and fourth and then fifth and sixth graders. and we start in July and sometimes it's like what do we do with the kids early for the first two weeks? They can't be in pads. True. I know exactly what I'm gonna do now. I'm gonna make them sit in about a quarter eagle stance with bending the knee, bending the ankles and they're gonna have to sit there for about a minute and a half and just do strict like 'cause football, you talk about fundamentals, it's all about low man wins, right?

But you can't be the low man with straight knees when you're tired. You know what I mean? So it's like the number one, it also builds mental toughness. How long can you sit in that position? You're gonna want to quit. And then, you know, obviously they're third and fourth grader, so I've been taking a little easy on them. A little different than it was when I was in college and our coaches were making us go until we threw up. But you're right. I'm going back to the fundamentals for my new my little junior careers before we we go to the winter capable. And I use other sports, you know. For example, next year, I'm gonna be coaching a kid.

That's six seven. He's six seven, two hundred and twenty-five pounds already. He's fifteen. And so I I've already formulated starting to formulate a game plan for him, Frank, in the sense that how am I gonna lower his center of gravity? Right? Because right now he's like a newborn colt out there. And so all I all I'll think about, and I'm watching a lot of the basketball playoffs and thinking about how somebody like the Joker out in Denver.

When he rebounds a ball, right? He passes like no other big man in basketball right now. But as he's rebounding the ball, he's getting it and he's already looking for his outlet. And oftentimes his outlet pass is four feet from him, but he makes that pass, right? And so

You know, you in the hockey world, and Jacob would know this, right? Dad Suk, right? He was known and for his YouTube highlights, right? He fascinated people with his skill level. But what people don't remember about him is that before he started to fascinate, he facilitated, right? He was an unbelievable defensive player. including, I think, winning a couple defensive player of the year awards, right?

His passing skills are superlative, right? So before you fascinate, I say, you gotta facilitate, right? And so in a defenseman's case in hockey, you gotta get that puck and you gotta move it to the puck carriers, right? You move it to your forwards. And that's it's a basic skill, but it's a skill that translates to whatever level you are playing at. It doesn't matter from from seven year olds to

Seventeen year olds to forty seven year olds playing in the pros. Well, there's no forty-seven year olds, but you know what I mean. I love it. Well, Craig, we're we're coming up on time. Can't thank you enough. again, this is another one. I say this every time we end that we could have another hour of this. I love it. we'll have to call you'll have to pop down for a beer, we'll have to come up. maybe get Christian on one of these days to, you know, and hear it from the a young buck versus

You know, a guy who's a little farther, farther removed. But nonetheless, man, we appreciate you. We thank you for coming on. And yeah, we we we do really appreciate it. Thanks, Craig. Yeah, I enjoyed it. Thank you guys for having me and Kelly. Thank you for your patience with these technical difficulties. But I think it's more on our end, buddy. Yeah. All right. Well, I appreciate you guys. Thanks for thinking of me. Absolutely. Have a great day. You too, guys.

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